#ColdbloodedContributionsPodcast #AshHorn #AKReptilesandCustomBackgroundDesigns#reptilepodcast #TranscriptOfReptilePodcast #naturalisticenclosures #Bioactive #Bioactiveenclosure #herpetology #herpetoculture #Nature4You #AustralianReptileKeeper #bestAustraliansubstrate #enclosurebackgrounds #custombackgroundsforreptileenclosures
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Scott: G’day. Welcome to episode number 8 of the Cold-blooded Contributions Podcast. We are your hosts the Eippers. I’m Scott Eipper and with me is my wife Tie Eipper. This podcast will bring to you people in the hobby who have made an impact on us creatively. Be it artistically, with data, improving our husbandry, or in this case making really interesting substrates and backgrounds. Today we have Ash Horn from AK Reptiles and Custom Background Designs. G'day Ash.
Ash: How you going guys? How are we?
Tie: I'd be better if Scott wasn't crop dusting us, but we can't have everything, can we? (Laughter)
Ash: Oh, we're keeping in there, aren't we? (Laughter)
Tie: We'll just apologize for any background noise. Scott insisted we try this outside. We live in Logan and we've already heard the police, an ambulance and hoons, so whatever doesn't get edited out, we apologize.
Ash: Don't mind the gunshots. (Laughter)
Scott: It makes for a spicy podcast, what can I say?
Ash: Tell you what was spicy, your crop dusting. (Laughter)
Tie: He doesn't get that effect in the office all by himself. (Laughter)
Scott: So Ash, what brought you to into reptiles, mate? How did you find reptiles as being a bit of a passion for yourself?
Ash: Oh, I think it all started like everybody else. Being a young kid, my grandmother's friend popped over to her house one day. Uh, this would have been late eighties. So obviously there was still no real regulations around the hobby or anything like that, and he rocked up with some blue tongues and stumpy tails and said “Do you want them?” So we ended up taking them and, lo and behold, they became mine and I got real curious about them and started looking after them. The Eastern bluey actually ended up dropping a clutch, so that was good to see. Obviously being young and not knowing anything about reptiles at all, most of them died or got eaten by mum because obviously I didn't know that they had to be separated or anything like that. So, I learnt the hard way, and then from then onwards, I just really started to bury my head deep into reptiles and amphibians.
Tie: Where did you grow up and do you think that affected who you are now?
Ash: Oh, yeah, definitely. Grew up in Melbourne, in the northern suburbs, real rough area when I was younger, still rough now. Yeah, definitely did have an impact on who I am and who I became. But obviously now, times have changed. I made the move, moved north with the family up into Queensland. Left Victoria behind, there's just obviously a lot more opportunity up here for the reptile hobby, and for myself to be able to see a lot more critters.
Tie: So, what got you into backgrounds, they're awesome. Is it a skill that you've been polishing over years, or did you just decide you were good at it?
Ash: I think everybody fine tunes their interests over time. Obviously wasn't something I was very good at the beginning, but, trial and error. And I've gotten to a point now where I've started actually making them for the business itself. So I do do custom orders. I guess it's the artistic side that really brought me into it, because I didn't like the so unesthetic feeling to setups, within the hobby itself, and for my own animals. I just wanted to go down a path where I could start creating something that was more aesthetically pleasing and also gave a little bit more naturalistic vibe to my setups.
Scott: That increases the usability and surface area of your enclosure as well, doesn't it?
Ash: Oh, definitely, by three-fold. By creating 3D backgrounds and stuff, you're utilising a lot of space, airspace I'd say, that wasn't being used previously. Okay, you might throw up some branches and something like that, but by having a 3D background, you can obviously create tunnels and rock faces, so then it gives you the ability for your animals to move around a lot more.
Tie: How long have you been doing it?
Ash: Backgrounds and stuff, probably the last five to seven years I've been doing it. Initially, I did it for myself a lot, but probably the last three or four years, I've actually started to do it for people within the hobby itself.
Scott: What sort of backgrounds do you do? I mean, there's a whole heap of different ones that are used for different animals, I suppose. Because what you can get away with for a gecko is completely different to what you might not get away with from the sharp claws of a goanna or something like that. When you're doing your background, is this something that's really key? You don't do one size fits all, but you really tailor it to the species that you're working with?
Ash: 100%. What I generally do with people within the hobby is I ask them what kind of animal is it for to begin with, because that gives me a rough idea how much support is going to be needed in the background, if it's going to need additional coatings, say for example, for a monitor, to ensure that the background is secure, it's not going to get torn up or anything like that. I want to ensure that the products that I'm providing to the hobby have longevity and they're not just chewed up within six months because, obviously that's going to be a bad reflection on myself. I want something to be long lasting, looks aesthetically pleasing for years to come, and then obviously if you've got certain species I'll tailor it accordingly. I do offer a range of colour schemes and that kind of thing. So if you want granite, sandstone, basalt, that kind of thing. I can tailor it to your needs and to your animal.
Tie: It's not just backgrounds you offer though, is it?
Ash: (Laughs) No, not at all. Oh, it would have been almost 10 years ago now, I started to get into bioactive setups. I wanted to bring nature into my tanks. I found it more pleasing, also very beneficial for the animals. It was more stimulating, I started to notice that they would have more natural behaviours.
Tie: Natural enrichment.
Ash: Obviously, yeah, of course. I started to focus from the bottom up and obviously that being from the soils. I started to speak to a lot of nurseries, did a lot of research in regard to Australian soils, what the actual makeup was. So you're going to have a lot of silica, aluminium in there and all that kind of content. So, I tried to come up with three soil types initially to cater for a wide range. I've come up with tropical, temperate and arid substrate. A lot of work went into these three substrates over the years to ensure that if I did use them, that they were able to sustain plant life, and I've gotten to a point now where I'm actually providing that commercially to the hobby itself. All three products can actually sustain the requirements for those plants that I use, which are all natives and can all grow in that substrate.
Scott: So, for the listeners, you hear this term bioactivity thrown around a lot. then you've got naturalistic enclosures as well, which aren't bioactive. Can you explain what bioactivity is and how the soil's got to be set up so it works? Effectively for bioactivity and what you might need to put in with the soil to help it remain self-cycling.
Ash: Yes, bioactivity, what you're looking at is, if you're going to say for example go with a wetter setup you need to ensure that you've got a drainage layer because if you don't implement something like that, then you're obviously going to get a lot of soggy substrates, which can actually kill off your whole setup to begin with. You'll create a lot of fungus growth , so you want to ensure you keep that stuff to a minimum because it impacts your plants, it can impact the animals as well. So what you'd be looking at is, once you've got your drainage layer in, you then put in your soil. I've got a special mix that I use, obviously, and then you've got to have your plant life. But another important part that plays into the whole bioactive setup is ensure you have your cucks. Your cleanup crews - you'll be looking at things like springtails and isopods. So obviously it's a lot less work when set up correctly for yourself to keep tanks clean, because obviously you've got your cleanup crew cleaning up all the crap and whatnot that your animals give off. Obviously, for things like larger animals like snakes and larger monitors, you still may need to do some spot cleans and so on, but it's not necessarily really going to be a bigger task than what it would be, given the fact that you've already got something in there that will continue to eat away and promote plant growth because obviously springtails and the isopods help with natural fertilizer.
Scott: I think that's really important to call out is that a bioactive substrate is not a substrate that you put in there and you forget about.
Ash: No.
Scott: You don't forget about the animals in there and just feed them. You still need to pull the sheds out, you still need to pull out the poo and ureates and stuff like that because it's about maintaining a balance.
Tie: There’s no such thing as a no-clean closure.
Scott: No, definitely not.
Ash: No. No, because if you let the nitrates and ammonia get out of control, then obviously that's going to cause a lot of issues for the soil to begin with, which is going to kill off your plants. And you don't want that to happen, and it's going to have a ripple effect onto your animals as well where it could have an impact on their health and well-being too. So, you don't want that to happen. Say for example, for your small animals like geckos, it's not too much of an issue because if you've got a lot of spring tiles and isopods, it's not so much of an issue compared to snakes, because obviously snakes are going to offload a lot of excrement, so you still do need to ensure you do your cleans because otherwise it's just going to cause you those issues down the track and you don't want that.
Scott: So do you turn the soil over and stuff like that to keep it aerated or do you allow the cleanup, cleanup crew, put my tongue back in and start again. (laughter)
Ash: Just say cuck. (Laughter)
Tie: That's not going to come out like that. (Laughter)
Ash: That’s why I said it. (Laughter)
Scott: So do you, do you have to turn the soil over to get aeration into it or do you leave the cleanup crew to actually aerate the soil?
Ash: Well, it depends on your mix. With mine, there's plenty of aeration in it already, so you don't actually need to turn it on a regular basis or anything like that. My soils, I have proven to see them last for years on end before I even had to think about changing them.
Tie: Same here. We use your soils. We have done for years.
Ash: Oh, thank you for that! Whereas if you're doing your own setup, and you're using your own ingredients and stuff, then I may recommend it, but you just need to ensure that you keep an eye on your soils, because if they start to get soaked and stagnant then you might want to change it out, or air it out, or something, and turn it over to ensure that it doesn't get any nasties coming through.
Scott: So how effective does it need to be? Does it need to be really deep? Can you get away with a shallow substrate? I mean, most enclosures, their dams are only about a hundred millimetres or four inches high, right? And by the time you put your drainage layer in, and by the time you put your soil in, and then you've got your leak limit that sits on top of that, I mean for, for the stuff that we've got, our dams are anywhere between 150 mil to 200 millimetres deep, for a fairly large enclosure. I'm assuming a smaller enclosure can probably have a slightly shallower depth to your soil because you're going to have smaller plants and all the rest of it. Can you sort of articulate a bit about that as well?
Ash: So generally what I recommend to people if they do come to me asking about soil depth and what do they need for their setup is given the fact that when you do look at nature itself, you'll always see that your ground cover plants are obviously down the bottom and generally don't need as deep substrate versus your taller plants, which will be at the back anyway. What I usually mention to everybody is, have your substrate sloping. So smaller at the front and deeper at the back. In that way, all your plants that require deep rooting are planted at the back. Your other plants that don't actually require that can be planted at the front. But once again, it comes down to your animals, what type of animal you're keeping, what type of setup you're going for, if it's more of a tropical setup or whatnot. Because, say for example, with an arid setup, I don't recommend using a drainage layer at all, because obviously you're not going to have as much water in that setup, versus a tropical or temperate setup. So there's really no point. But then you gain some of that depth with your substrate with arid setup, to ensure that say, for example, if you're going to plant some spinifex or something, that they do have enough room to plant out if you're in a lower or a low line tank, versus, if you're going to have a low line tank with a tropical setup, the plants are going to struggle because they're not going to have enough depth to be able to root out properly.
Tie: Can you explain to our listeners why going to Bunnings and buying the $4 bag of potting mix is not a good idea in an enclosure?
Ash: It doesn't quite work like that. Generally, people obviously have a difference in opinion here and that's fine, but what I believe is, with potting mixes you've got to be very careful that they don't have any chemicals or nasties in it, such as fertilizers, especially if you're keeping frogs. They absorb all that stuff through their skin and they're going to end up having a lot of complications and most likely going to end up dying off from those chemicals. You need to ensure everything that you get is organic, has not being processed to a degree where it has any of those potential nasties in it. Everything that I source is all natural and organic, and from Australia. There's nothing in there that I won't get any surprises from. It's also all certified as well from my suppliers too, so I know exactly what's in there and they do tell me that there won't be any issues regarding any fertilizers or anything like that. By all means, people can go out and make their own substrate mixes and whatnot. Just make sure you do your research first and don't go down the track of just getting any old type of potting mix or anything like that, because it's going to be potentially detrimental to your setup.
Tie: You mentioned earlier that you've tried and proven it yourself. What animals do you keep?
Ash: A wide range. I've kept everything from geckos, monitors, snakes, and frogs. At the moment I'm keeping a few different locales of scalaris, I've got some eromanga’s, I've got a whole different range of frogs at the moment, ranging from pobblebonks, white lips, dainties, graceful tree frogs, uh, what else? I've got a whole heap of different skinks and whatnot as well.
Tie: Awesome.
Scott: Do you keep those in individual enclosures, or keep them in a group, or do you have multiple species in the enclosure sometimes? We've tried multiple species setups and we've had them to be really successful. We've kept turtles with lace monitors, we've had skinks, tree frogs and turtles together in large aquarium systems - you can have communal enclosures with multiple species in it if you're careful about what you manage inside it. You've got to be very careful to make sure that you manage it accordingly and that the animals that you've got in there have the same requirements.
Tie: And make sure that their well-fed.
Scott: Well, it's not so much that they're well-fed. (laughter)
Ash: Well-fed on each other.
Scott: It's important that they've got to have the same requirements from a temperature point of view and things like that. We certainly find that those communal species enclosures do work, provided they are managed accordingly. What about yourself? How have you found that in the past?
Ash: Yeah, I'm a dirty co-habber. (laughter) Just to put it bluntly. I have and do keep multiple species all together. So at the moment I actually have my Boyd’s outside in an aviary with White lips and a few different skinks like Delicata and stuff. Inside I did have my water dragons, my Gippsland water dragons at the time with some dainties. But as they grew up, I had to take them out because obviously they're going to be munching on the frogs. So, I took them out. I am planning to put some more together, but as you mentioned, I've got to make sure that the environment is right. Obviously if you're going to put species together, you need to ensure that they have the same requirements. So heating, lighting, that kind of thing. Obviously I don't want to put an arid species with a tropical species because you're going to be potentially introducing that arid species to RI and stuff. You don't want to be taking those risks. But yeah, I, do enjoy cohabiting. I think it provides more naturalistic viewing for our pleasure. Some people may disagree and, and it is what it is, but, as long as you have all the right parameters in place, then you're not really going to have any issues later on down the track, provided that you give ample space for all your animals, you lay the tank out.
So you've got your ground dwellers, you've got your middle, and then you've obviously got your canopy. If you take all that into account and make sure that your tank is big enough, you've got enough spots for your animals to bask where they need to, and they've got their separate areas because some can be quite territorial, then you shouldn't have any issues. But, I do recommend keeping an eye on the setup when you do first introduce all your animals because if you do start to see any type of regression then it might be an idea to take that specific animal out because it could cause you problems.
Scott: I've spent a lot of time in the field.
Ash: Have you? (laughter)
Scott: Yeah. And you go along Genoa Falls as a classic example, and you'll get your Gippsland dragons, Black rock skinks and Water skinks all basking together on the same rock, in the same spots, because they're looking for those same thermal requirements. Now you're not going to keep an adult Water dragon in with a juvenile Black rock skink just because you can see it in the wild, so it's important to understand that just because you've seen it in the wild doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be able to replicate that in captivity. As long as you do a risk assessment type exercise when you're looking at each of the animals that you put into the enclosures versus what you're trying to do, no problem.
Ash: Definitely. I couldn't agree more. But yeah, size definitely does come into it because obviously we all know that water dragons are guts and they'll just eat anything that can fit into their mouth. So, you want to make sure that size is relevant.
Tie: Size is always relevant, honey. You did ask for that. (laughter)
Ash Horn: On that note,
Tie: Share with us a professional piece that you've done that you're most proud of.
Ash: Oh,
Tie: My English is good, isn't it? (laughter)
Ash: I don’t think I've got any professional pieces that I'm proud of. (laughs)
Tie: Oh, come on, I've seen them, they're good.
Ash: Oh, look, I just enjoy the work that I do. From an artistic side, from a creative perspective. If the people that I provide those services to are happy, then that makes me happy. Obviously, I put in a lot more work for those individuals who approach me for said pieces versus myself, because half the time having OCD, I tend to have a tendency of seeing it once it's set up, not being happy with it and ripping it out anyway. So, once I've made something for somebody, if they're happy, it's gone, I don't see it and I'm not going to be picking at it.
Scott: For the listeners, what's involved in doing a background? Do you take inspiration from going out in the field yourself? Do you take inspiration from photos? How do you get your inspiration and then how do you actually take that inspiration and turn it into something inside an enclosure?
Ash: Just like every other bloody herper I also have an interest in photography as well. I actually studied photography back in Melbourne at PSC years and years and years ago, and I had a really good knack for taking landscape photography. I kind of feel like it's entwined, so it comes hand in hand, which is a plus for myself. When I do go out into the bush and spend some time out there by myself and just wandering through, I am taking note of the landscape and rock formations and how everything's set up. And not only do I just take landscape photos for inspiration on a later date, but I also get up close and see the um, I've gone blank….. (laughs)
Scott: The grain of the rock?
Ash: The grain of the rocks and stuff,
Scott: All the root systems…
Ash: The contrast and stuff. I make sure I try and catch that because that's something that I want to incorporate into my work and try and mimic because obviously when you're creating a setup for an animal, you want to try and make it as naturalistic as possible. So to follow that and have that kind of inspiration there as well as I think a plus. I also draw on books. One of them especially is Rocky Outcrops of Australia, which is a really good book. For me, that also gives a lot of insight in regards to what we can expect in Australia and what we see in landscapes. So, I take that into account too, and it's a good reference.
Scott: That Rocky Outcrop book that was published by CSIRO talks about not only the rocky outcrops themselves, but the ecology of the species around them and how important rock outcrops are. It's quite an interesting little book to have.
Ash: Yeah. It goes into great detail of rock makeup and stuff and what you can expect in said areas of the country that you're actually in at the time as well, which is great to know because not only do you want to look at the rock and see what it is, but you want to understand its makeup and what made it, how was it made, because then you can try and incorporate that into the design as well.
Scott: You get 150 million years into something in 15 minutes. (laughter)
Ash: I wouldn't say 15 minutes. (laughter)
Tie: I know for a fact it doesn't make you 15 minutes. (laughter)
Ash: If it was 15 minutes, I think I'd be a low-key millionaire by now if I could slap together something like that in 15 minutes.
Tie: So, for anyone interested in bioactivity, give us three books or podcasts or YouTube channels that you think might interest them.
Ash: Look, there was a lot of searching on YouTube that I took inspiration from. In regards to books, for me personally, there's not much out there that I've come across yet. There probably is, but the names of the books are evading me at the moment. YouTube played a huge part to get a lot of inspiration to kickstart everything. In regard to soil ecology and makeup, there was just a lot of research through papers available on the internet. I spoke to a fair few renowned nurseries back in Melbourne before I came up as well, before I started all this almost 10 years ago, to get a grasp of how soil makeup was, content. Obviously it wasn't just a matter of getting some soil from your backyard, throw it into your tank and say, here plants, grow. Okay, Soil is made up of air, water, minerals and whatnot, but you need to understand that plants require specific minerals and stuff as well. So, if you're missing those key ingredients, you're not really going to be able to grow much. You're going to be spending a fortune on plants and they're just going to be caulking it left, right, and centre, because you actually haven't provided the nutrients that they need within your soil. So I would say it was a lot of reading. A lot of papers from, for example, University of Queensland and RMIT. I’ve read some papers from University of Melbourne as well, and like I mentioned, just speaking to people who actually do that role or actually work in the industry as well. They gave me a lot of feedback and a better understanding.
Scott: Do you try to source native plants from the location where those animals are actually from? Is that you're looking for? Or can you use other plants that are probably a little bit hardier, I suppose? It really depends on what you're aiming for I suppose.
Ash: Oh, definitely. I want to try and go as close as I can to the animal’s natural environment. I do have a very wide range of plants available through my website, that I use myself as well. I cover everything from Eucalypt to Riparian to wetlands, sand dunes, arid areas, rainforest, dry rainforest, all that kind of stuff. My supplier actually has access to all these plants because they grow them themselves. That's where I get mine from, and then obviously grow them out, put them into my tanks and hopefully they take off, which they generally do, I haven't come across any issues, but another thing you need to keep in mind is that, if for example, if you're using a fern and you've got it under your heat light, it's not going to last long. Obviously, those kinds of aspects you need to take into account as well, because they are a ground dwelling plant, but they're generally under the canopy, so they're not going to get any heat or anything like that, so you need to think about those things too.
Scott: The lighting and how the lighting interacts with the occupants of the enclosure, which are not just the animals, but obviously the plants, the cleanup crew….
Ash: Mosses, all that.
Scott: Everything that's in there, it all needs to have like a symbiotic type of relationship for it to really work.
Ash: Definitely.
Scott: So, when it comes to your lighting, you're looking at things like full spectrum lighting?
Ash: Yep.
Scott: For the lights to be able to correctly, for the plants, I should say, (laughter) to be able to correctly process.
Ash: Synthesise.
Scott: Process things. I'm not going to try and say that word because I’ll completely stuff it up. (laughter)
Ash: That was the first time it came out of my mouth right. (laughter)
Scott: Yeah, well, we've done well there. But then also too, as you say, the heat gradient as well is really important. In some cases, because you might need to keep an area or a zone inside that enclosure a little bit warmer, you may have to try plants that are, from a slightly more northerly aspect in a warmer environment to actually suit themselves better inside that enclosure.
Ash: Yeah. Say for example, some of the rainforest species that I have, some are obviously found in far north Queensland, so they're a little bit more hardier when it comes to temperatures . You could go down that avenue of getting some of those plants and playing it closer to your heat gradient where it's a little bit warmer. Then there’s your cooler stuff. You can get some more temperate plants. But another thing you need to keep in mind, is the overexposure of UV to plants as well. That's another issue that I've experienced in the past. Yeah, okay, you've got your full spectrum light, which is good for the plants, but if you provide too much light in general, it's going to be overkill. You'll start to notice that your ferns and stuff might whittle away because there's just way too much light coming through. It's all about balance. You need to make sure light placement is perfect. Where you plant your plants as well - in good spots, so they're not being impacted by heat and too much light as well.
Scott: And that comes back into the maintenance side of the enclosure too. Like when people are saying “Oh, you don't have to clean the enclosure as much or whatever.” No, but you do need to trim the plants. You do need to make sure that your lighting is in the right spot. You need to water the plants, but you need to make sure that you're not overwatering too much.
Ash: Yep.
Scott: You want to make sure that the environment for the cleanup crew is okay, and also for the animals included. There's a lot of balancing, I suppose. Does that mean that when you're first starting off a new enclosure, do you get it up and running and have it running for a period of time before you want to introduce the final occupants shall we say?
Ash: For me personally, I don't because I believe what I do, I've got it down pat. But as a general rule of thumb, you should let everything grow in because obviously you'll be running the risk of your plants being trampled because they haven't rooted yet, and you're just going to cause damage to your setup. In general I would recommend that you do let it grow out a little bit, so everything can establish properly. Then once you've got that and the plants are set off and you've got your cleanup crew and all that and they have actually started off really well and they've grown out, then you can introduce the actual occupants into the tank. Otherwise you've just wasted all that time, is what you'll usually find.
Tie: Say we didn't have that import/export rule that we have here. What would be your dream enclosure? What animal would go in the enclosure that you'd build for your dream animal?
Ash: insularis.
Tie: No hesitation. Good lad.
Ash: I just got a weird fascination with them. I'd have walls and walls and walls of them if I could. I don't know why. I think it's that they they look different to anything else in the viper world, I feel. And it's head shape as well. It's just stocky and yeah, just come at me bro. (laughter)
Scott: We were lucky enough to see insularis in the wild.
Ash: Yeah, all right, pipe down. (laughter)
Tie: So you've got a couple of young, adorable kids, a full time job….
Ash: Yes.
Tie: How do you balance everything?
Ash: Is that even a thing? (laughter) So balancing a full time job, a business outside of that full time job, two kids and the biggest one of all, the wife. (laughter)
Tie: Is Kat going to listen to this? (laughter)
Ash: Probably not. I might get away with it. (laughter) Oh, look, it is quite the challenge. There's a lot of hours in the day, but there's also not enough hours in the day to get everything done that I would like to do. There's probably a lot of people out there that don't know that I have a medical condition that does impact what I'm actually able to do with backgrounds and stuff. So it would take me a little bit longer than usual. I need to take that into account too, because obviously I have my good days and my bad days.
Scott: Is that your excuse for your hair cut as well? (laughter)
Ash: I just want to look like you mate. (laughter)
Scott: Fair enough,
Ash: No hair. (laughter)
Tie: Oh no, yours isn't white. (laughter)
Ash: or balding. (laughter)
Tie: I love you babe. (laughter)
Ash: So yeah, it is. quite challenging, but I do it because I love it.
Scott: It provides an outlet for you as well, doesn't it?
Ash: Yes.
Scott: It gives you something to focus on and takes the stress of work away.
Ash: Does it? (laughter)
Scott: Gives you a different version of stress for homework!
Ash: Yeah, well, my creativity has become my work. But it's not that point where I'm not enjoying it because I still do enjoy it a lot. It's just difficult because I've got interruptions because of the little ones. They want to join me and start painting and I'm like “No, you can't paint that, here, go paint the wall or something. I can fix that, just not this because daddy will have to start again or come up with reasons as to why this person's background was late, or why it turned up fluro pink.” (Laughter)
Tie: It could be a young girls enclosure, who knows?
Scott: It could be an urban environment, that's something a bit different.
Ash: True, very true.
Tie: Little mini graffiti all over the walls. (Laughter)
Ash: No beds or anything like that for Bearded dragons coming out of this business! (laughter)
Tie: Oh wait, you don't actually use sand do you? (laughter)
Ash: I do. (laughter)
Scott: What's your biggest pet peeve?
Ash: In the hobby or outside the hobby? Oh, look.
Scott: Oh look, I think probably within the hobby is probably the way to go.
Tie: Oh no, let's get to know Ash. Let's do both. (laughter)
Ash: Outside the hobby, I think just generally people not being nice these days, people just not giving other people the time of day. When I was younger, a lot of people would have seen me come across as a very direct individual and probably think I was an arsehole. And I probably was. Obviously over time people grow and they change, and my kids brought me back down to earth quick, smart as well.
Scott: They teach you patience don’t they?
Ash: Definitely. But within the hobby itself - I think it's not really a pet peeve, but it's just a shame that the more experienced keepers these days have kind of gone underground because they've had enough of the bullshit that goes on on all the Facebook pages and stuff. So they're avoiding that and keep to themselves and speak to their own little clicks and stuff, which I understand because I kind of do it myself. I used to help a lot of people a lot back in the day, and I don't so much now, but that also comes down to me being very time poor. I don't really have the opportunity and that's also Facebook with their algorithms too, because a lot of the pages that I'm on, I don't really see anymore because it's just a lot of advertisement. So, there's a lot of things I don't see, and I guess that would be the same for everybody else. But, I think, new people coming into the hobby, they need those questions answered, even if it's already asked 10, 000 times before, because otherwise, how else are they going to learn? We're going to get to a point where those experienced keepers don't provide their feedback and input. We're going to have a whole generation of individuals who aren't really sure on how to keep animals properly.
Scott: I think it's something to keep in mind is that there is an attrition rate in the hobby. Most reptile keepers would have one or two animals, but then when you start to get past that, they start to have greater numbers. Much of those people only seem to hang around for four years, five years, and then they start to either get jack of it and leave the hobby, or they go the opposite and they go crazy and then they end up having rooms full of animals and stuff like that.
Ash: Coughs (laughter) Not just rooms, but outside too. (laughter)
Scott: Definitely. But we've seen ourselves, there's this cycling of people that are continually changing over. And because you've got that cycle, rate these new people that are coming in, haven't got that experience from decades ago and all the rest of it. So those questions haven't ever been asked or answered in front of those people or so they don't know. I think it's hard with social media itself. Social media can be this fantastic thing where it connects people across the globe and gives this instantaneous answer system, encyclopaedic type knowledge, but then at the same time too, it can also be a problem as well where you've got people from across the globe that are quick and willing to hide behind their keyboard and make comments.
Ash: Put their 2 cents in. Definitely. But look, I think as a basis, if you're new to the hobby, you should invest in some books, because there are plenty out there. Especially from a lot of Australian authors like yourselves, that provide a lot of good information to work off a base from. And from there they can start to branch out and ask people from forums and social media and all that kind of stuff. Because everybody has a difference of opinion and you know what, that's fine. Different opinions are great because something I might be doing could actually be improved on.
Tie: Yeah.
Ash: You know, just because I do something one way, it doesn't mean it's right because I could try something else that you guys might mention to me. I might try that and it might actually work out better. That's the whole thing about people being able to share their ideas and stuff on social media, and that's why it's such a powerful tool. But there are a lot of egos unfortunately on there who are quick to jump in and say this is how you should do it. It's my way or the highway, which is a shame. It shouldn't be like that. And then once you start building on that basic knowledge, and you've gone through all that process and you've kept a few animals, then you get into the stage of being a hoarder like myself and you guys, (laughter) where you're keeping a lot of animals. It's a passion, you know, but then also you need to realize where do you stop? Because too much can also be your downfall, which has happened to me before. I got up to 160 animals when I was down in Melbourne at one point. I'm just like, this is too much. I'm not enjoying it anymore. It feels like it's more of a job and you don't want your passion and your hobby to be like that.
Tie: To be nonstop cleaning and feeding.
Ash: Yeah, exactly. Because you just clean up shit all the time. Well, if you had a lot of bioactive setups…… (laughter) you clean up a lot less. If you want some bioactive soils and clean up crews, make sure you hit me up…. (laughter) But no, it should be fun and enjoyable. I've heard other podcasts and stuff, and that’s the feedback coming through. Scott, get your crack out of my face. (laughter) Where people need to be more approachable.
Tie: Yeah, but you see both sides on social media too, where you've got people that are lovely and they're very helpful and then you've got other people, where it might not go their way and instead of just, I don't know, stating their differences or leaving it the hell alone, it gets downright mean, nasty and personal.
Ash: Yeah, just learn to scroll on.
Tie: Yeah.
Ash: If you don't have any constructive feedback and don't want to have any input and you have a matter of a difference of opinion and you can't bring anything constructive to the conversation, just don't bother. There's plenty of posts that I see where it’s, like you mentioned, it just gets into tiffs all the way round. It's like, yeah, I'm avoiding that, like plague.
Tie: It ends up being on body shape or disabilities or anything like that. And it's like, whoa, that's got nothing to do with the question ya asked mate.
Ash: Just takes the fun out of the hobby. It just brings social media down and also puts some new people in a position where they don't want to ask any questions because they just get berated and belittled. And that's not fair.
Scott: You mentioned a couple of books before. I think a couple of books that we found that were really interesting and really helpful when it came to setting up bioactive enclosures and lighting and heating were the Arcadia books.
Ash: Yeah, you're right.
Scott: Those books that were put out by John Courtney Smith from Arcadia really give a sound basis of knowledge on how to set up those enclosures. Three of them I think there was.
Tie: No, there's four. There's Fire, MBD, Nutrition, and Bioactivity.
Ash: Yeah.
Scott: Yeah, but from an enclosure point of view, you know, the bioactivity book and the book on lighting and eating is really important.
Ash: Can you get them through you guys, through your website?
Scott: Yeah, you can get them from us, but then if you're overseas, there's overseas outlets for the books too.
Ash: Make sure if you are from Australia, you hit Tie and Scott up through their website as well. (laughter)
Tie Eipper: Love your guts! (laughter) Do you get out for a herp much?
Ash: I've probably got some of the worst luck whenever I go out herping. I either get flooded in somewhere or storms come through. I see a load of different frog species. (laughter)
Tie: And a lot of mud. (laughter)
Ash: A lot of mud. But it even comes to a point where a lot of stuff is DOR, which is quite disappointing and I go out bush a lot and I don't know if I'm just a bit special ……
Tie: Can I answer that? (laughter)
Ash Horn: No you can’t. (laughter)
Scott: He’s special to us. (laughter)
Ash: Thanks Scott.(laughter)
Tie: Do you two want a room? (laughter)
Ash: No, been there, done that, it’s not exciting. (laughter)
Tie: I must get the special treatment….
Ash: I went up to Blacktown Tablelands. I think it was early in the year and I saw a fair bit. I might have ticked off almost all the lizard species that you can find up there. No snakes or anything like that of course, but yeah, a lot of lizard species. When I try and go out west, it's just poor choice of timing or a freak storm comes through that wasn't supposed to come through and I get stuck and can't go anywhere for a couple of days because it's just flooded out and obviously nothing's out and about. But I’ve got another trip planned later in the year. I’ll be doing that for about a week. So we'll see how that goes.
Tie: Where are you going?
Ash: Going out west.
Tie: Oh, we're not coming then. We can stay at home and get rained in.
Ash: Yeah, don't come with me because you just, yeah.
Tie: What's the favourite animal you've ever found while out herping?
Ash: Well, the ones that I do find….. (laughter)
Tie: OK, favourite live one then.
Ash: A few different leaf tails. I was at Girraween earlier this year as well. And obviously up at Blacktown Tablelands, all the leaf tails that were out and about, they've probably been favourite so far, but there's obviously a lot more that I want to see. Probably, surprisingly on my list to see out in the wild would be the Earless dragons. Obviously they're everywhere in certain areas. But I haven't been that far out yet, but they would be good to see.
Tie: Do you enjoy being alone?
Ash: Yeah I enjoy my alone time. I go out herping by myself as well. Gives me my time and downtime from the kids and the family and stuff. Even though as soon as I get 300k's down the road I'm missing them like hell and I'm on the phone saying should I come back home and stuff. (laughter) I’ve even done a few crazy trips where I've, I've only gone out to go herping overnight, but what I've done is I've spent 14, 15, 16 hours on the road and just end up driving back home because I just wanted to see the kids again. Call me crazy, but you know, home is where the heart is.
Tie: Yeah.
Scott: Horrible thing that you love your kids, isn't it?
Ash: Yeah, and my wife. (laughter)
Scott: At the end of the day it's, it's about getting out there, getting that mental break sometimes, and then, all you want to do is get home.
Ash: Yeah, definitely need that downtime, but it's weird when you have kids. You just, you don't want to be away from them.
Tie: Tugs on your heartstrings too much.
Ash: Yeah, especially my two, you know, they're a handful, but…
Tie: I still have a kid like that. (laughter). Do you live by any particular words of wisdom?
Ash: I've got a quote tattooed on my leg and it says nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anybody can start today and make a new ending.
Tie: Ohhhh, is that what that says? (laughter)
Ash: That is what that says. So yeah, pretty much no matter how you start something off, you have the ability to change how it finishes. So you might start off something in a negative way, but you've always got that opportunity and ability to try and finish off on a high note.
Tie: That's really cool.
Ash: Is it?
Tie: Yeah.
Ash: It's a bit deep.
Tie: Oh, it's a bit hard to remember at times, but yeah, they're good words of wisdom. Share with us one thing you think is true that no one agrees with you on.
Ash: I'm always right. (laughter) 100%. Yeah, always right. Just ask my wife. She'll tell ya. (laughter)
Scott: Have you got any exciting projects that you're working on at the moment that you can tell the listeners about?
Ash: I do actually. As I've already mentioned earlier, I've got three bioactive substrates that are currently available, but I've got another three in the works, a little bit more area specific. I'm seeing how they go. There's a little bit more work that I need to do on them. So there's Wheatbelt, Granitebelt, and there's another one as well, that I won't mention because it's quite challenging. So we’ll see how that one pans out. I may have gained some inspiration from a certain couple up north in Cairns from one of their builds that they did a couple of years back. But we'll see how it goes. If I can replicate that naturalistic environment, I need a lot of heat. So that would give you a little bit of an insight of what I'm trying to aim for.
Scott: Maybe with a fluorescent orange snake.
Ash: Potentially.
Scott: Have you ever experienced misogyny in the hobby?
Ash: Yeah, Tie does it to me all the time. (laughs)
Tie: I shouldn’t laugh at that. Thanks.
Scott: It goes both ways. It
Tie Eipper: It does go both ways.
Ash: It does go both ways. I wouldn't say I've experienced it myself, but I've seen it plenty to a lot of others in the hobby. There's the whole aspect of women in general being in the hobby, and they're just not given the same respect as what the men are in the hobby. Straight up. And it's quite disappointing because there's a fair few women in the hobby who are really, really experienced, but they're just not acknowledged for it. And it's disappointing because they bring a lot to the table, and you'd be surprised at how much some of these individual women can actually bring to the table and provide to the hobby itself. There's a lot of people out there who just either are ignorant to it, or they're not willing to accept it. It's a shame.
Tie: It is. It is. I don't think it's going to change any time soon, but.
Ash: Can only hope.
Tie: Yeah. But talking about it too, so, I don't know, maybe some people aren't aware that they're doing it. Maybe some people are aware that they're doing it. But, I guess, baring it and not talking about it doesn't help it when it happens. And like you said, it goes both ways. It does really go both ways. So what's the one takeaway , that you would like the audience to get from this episode?
Ash: I think what I would love for people to take away from this is, provide your animals with more of a naturalistic and enriching environment. They do benefit from it. You benefit from it as well because it's a little bit more exciting to see. At the same time, we're starting to see more naturalistic and bioactive setups coming out in the hobby as well, which is great. There's a fair few people doing them now. People are starting to move away from, I'm probably going to get shellacked for this, but moving away from tub keeping, to bigger and better setups. What I see the hobby doing now is moving to bigger and better, which is good. And it's good to see because it shows new people coming to the hobby as well that it's not necessarily the best thing to keep an animal in a box. Yes. Okay. The departments across each and every state outline minimal requirements for enclosure sizes and stuff. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best. There are obviously exceptions to the rules. Like say, for example, some hatching animals do a lot better growing out in tubs and I understand that. But once adult, or a bigger animal, I believe they should be moved into a bigger setup in general. So then they have a lot more space to move around and have a lot more enrichment.
Scott: I think with that, not any way is right all the time. It should be an approach that you look at different systems for different animals.
Ash: At different ages along their growth.
Scott: Of course. Yeah. It's not to say that tub keeping is negative. It's not to say that it's positive all the time. It's not to say it's negative all the time. It's got to meet what fits best for you and the animal, as well as impacting on the legislation and all the rest of it. And I think that there's certainly a place for keeping in a minimalistic style setup, but then there's also places where it's not necessarily appropriate either.
Ash: Yeah, definitely. Say for example, Angleheads, I've kept them plenty of times, they stress out if you put them into a big enclosure as a hatchie. So you want to keep them in something small and minimal so they feel safe, secure, and they can actually not sit there sulking 24 seven because it's just not going to be beneficial to them at all. It's going to be detrimental to their health because they're an animal that's stressed so easily. You're looking at potentially losing them if you don't provide the right environment for them. Fantastic. If
Scott: Fantastic. If you ever had an opportunity to herp somewhere, where would it be? What's the ultimate thing for you to find in the wild?
Ash: The …….. Oh, what's the saying?
Tie: Crème de menthe?
Ash: Crème de resistance….
Tie: Yeah that’s the one, I went straight for alcohol.
Ash: I'd have to say Borneo.
Scott: Borneo?
Ash: Borneo.
Scott: Yeah, OK. In Borneo what are you chasing there?
Ash: Anything, everything. I reckon there's a lot of shit in Borneo that no one's seen before. (laughter) So just go in there and just headfirst into there and just see what you can find.
Scott: Well its a pretty enigmatic place. Everything from Earless Monitors to King cobras to Kraits to incredible vipers, to beautiful flying tree frogs.
Ash: Yep, you name it.
Scott: It's an amazing location.
Ash: Not to mention the fact that it's untouched to a degree. It's not like here where you can go to the Blue Mountains or you just go up to the Daintree, because there's a lot of stuff in Borneo that’s wild. So I'd love to go there. I've been to the Philippines and that was amazing. I can only think that Borneo is a hundred times better.
Tie: Definitely. Definitely. Is there anything we haven't covered that you wanna say before we close out?
Ash: I would, but I think it'll be detrimental to Scott's, uh, persona… (laughter)
Tie: On that note, where can our listeners find you?
Ash: Uh, you can find me on Facebook. So, Facebook and Instagram at AK Reptiles and Custom Background Designs. Or you can go and hit up my website at akreptilesandcustomdesigns.com.au
Tie: Thanks for listening to the Cold-blooded Contributions podcast. A massive thank you to our guest. Ash Horn. We really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to talk to us. Usually, we'll be releasing our podcast monthly, so make sure you follow us so you don't miss out on an episode. Give the Cold-blooded Contributions Podcast a like on Facebook so you don't miss any updates, give ways or guest announcements. The links discussed in today's podcast will be in the show notes. And remember, always trust your creativity. It's intelligence having fun.
Ash from AK Reptiles and Custom Background Designs can be found here:
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